Beware of Expat Financial Advisors in Shanghai

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halcyon99 Original post #1
I just met with a couple of the largest expat "financial advisors" companies in Shanghai after being barraged by cold calls...Little did they know I have over a decade of experience as a regulator in the field...Harhar! As a note of caution, I would seriously reconsider dealing with any company that is pushing "unit linked life insurance product." Sadly, this is ALL that the China-based advisors can push... The two major products being pushed both have fees in excess of 10% per year. The reports that the salespeople prepared for me were flawed and did not take into account the fact the fees sky-rocket after several years. Sadly, the fees were mis-represented. Basically, the advisor would have lost his advisory licence in Australia given the breach of conduct. But as this is China, its UNREGULATED. Another major problem is that your "advisor" will push to get the longest term possible. Most unit linked life insurance plans offered have 25 year plans. The advisor will push 25 years because that will max out his commission.. Note that all advisors in China are commission based. For example, the commissions on an expat investing 2000$ a month in one of these plans on the max term equals over 36,000$ in commissions to the '"advisor company" you deal with! Basically, the first 2 years of investments go straight to the company you deal with as commissions! Your advisor will do do everything possible to max out the years of the term because the commissions are massive! And the commissions are massive because your money is locked into these accounts, often for up to 25 years. If you want to take your money out, in say 5 years, you will pay massive penalties and fees. You will basically lose all your money. Note that the clients don't learn about that until AFTER they sign a contract. Beware SH Expat Community, and feels free to PM if you have any questions! 8)

8 Replies

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ayall #2
I agree... i've met with a few guys... felt like they were used car salesman. they tried to make me sign and do everything "quickly," and wouldn't explain the fees. it's true that the penalties for taking your money out is massive - for example, if you put in 100,000$ in a 25 year plan, and you aren't happy with it and want to take it out after the first year - you only get back 8,000$!! yes, that's not a typo... that's saying that you are penalized 92%!!!! if you want to take your money out at 24 years, let's again say 100,000$.... you can get back $80,000... so only penalized 20%! Ontop of that, as OP mentioned, you have these MASSIVE yearly "maintenance fees," which they don't want to tell you about. based on my calculations, with the fees included, you'll be lucky to turn a profit even in a bull market... and if it's a bear market, kiss your money bye bye. I feel bad for people who get caught up in these scams - they can really **** you over. My suggestions: scottrade.com... be your own financial adviser.
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OZDave #3
I hate those guys. I just hang up on them now, after hundreds of calls over the last few years. Mind you, I've also met the financial planner at ANZ, who weren't much better... I said I wanted to pay off the loan they were offering in a few years and she said to me "but I won't make any money on that", and didn't mention anything about the massive forex risk on the products she was offering. Best trust your money to someone reputable at home or DIY.
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Lucik #4
I always just passively read here and never write, but this time could not resist and even registered to put my 3 cents on this topic. Halcyon99 when you took so much of your time to write your 3 post ever to “protect” the expats here why don’t you come out clean and at least admit that you are a fee-based financial adviser. I have been following you on some publications and your website and recognize your writing style. You could have at least paid for some advertising space on the website instead of posing as a customer… I used to work for one these financial companies and yes many of them are based on commissions. And so are many other people that work in sales (including real estate, bankers etc.) That’s fact of life. As every other industry, you have the unscrupulous people that you might fall across, but you have the decent ones as well. One just has to make an intelligent choice and keep on looking for the right match. I did also thought that the products were expensive, then I realized that it’s the WHOLE banking & financial industry that try to make more and more money out of the people. … and my bank or my mum’s government retirement plan is not an exception. My 3 cents is that: with or without financial adviser people HAVE to read the conditions, the fees, the terms in order to make intelligent decisions not when it comes to their finances, but to everything. And Halcyon99 make some money for proper advertising. No need to pose here and badmouth your competitors. Not classy...
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halcyon99 #5
@ Lucik - It's absurd to suggest I am a fee-based financial advisor. Not that it's pertinent, or any of your business, but I am a visiting professor on leave. Besides, even if I were a financial advisor, It would not change any of the facts regarding these expatriate offshore unit linked tax-free life insurance products. My biggest issue here is that after examining these products, there is NO justifiable reason to use them. The fees are extremely high, the plans are not flexible, and the worst of all, the terms and conditions are not transparent. Basically, they are entirely unsustainable. I asked the 'advisor' to explain how the fees worked, and I got a vague answer, which I found through further study to be mis-representation. I was also pushed to sign a 25 year investment plan, which is INSULTING. All the more so as he wanted me to sign up for this plan after only our second meeting. I calculated the fees on a 25 year investment plan with the recommended company. Based on investing 1000$ a month, I would be paying over 2000$ per year in basic fees for 25 years. A quick calculation shows that even in a tremendous bull market, where my 1000$ monthly investment was earning 10% per year, I would still be losing money (around $800 per year). And if the market dives, or just breaks even, I would still be paying that 2000$ per year in basic fees. Even if I decided to decrease the amount of my monthly investment, or stop investing altogether, I would still have to pay that 2000$ per year in basic fees. If I wanted to take out all my money, I would lose everything due to the massive cancellation fees. And let's assume I WILL want to take out my money at some point, given that a 25 YEAR INVESTMENT plan is ludicrous to begin with! @ Lucik - WHY WOULD ANYONE PUT THEMSELVES IN THIS POSITION???? Tell me, how does this in any way relate to your Mum's pension plan back home? My conclusions are as follows. It's a perfect storm here in China. You have salespeople peddling unit-linked life insurance plans disguised as expatriate financial investment plans in a totally UNREGULATED environment. At the same time, you have naive expats who are easily suckered in by these salespeople given these plans are basically outlawed in their home country. Given that there are so many of these investment 'advisories' it's clear many many many expats have been suckered in to these plans by hyper-aggressive salespeople trying to secure massive commissions. And to your point that expats should read the terms and conditions more clearly, I still find a couple things strange from my last meeting: 1) The 'advisor' I met could not supply an answer on how big the cancellation fees would be if I decided to cancel my plan, aside from telling me not to worry about it. 2) The role of the massive “bonus” that accompanied the investment plan. The recommendation I received included a massive ‘guaranteed’ 50% bonus on the $1000 I would invest each month for the first 18 months. Of course, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn’t. After running the table on this bonus, it’s clear to me this is an old trick. It disguises the massive 10% annual fees with 18 months of 50% bonuses. The plan seems great for the first 18 months, after which, and for the next 23.5 years, you are paying massive maintenance fees. Of course, by that time, if you cancel the plan you will lose all your money. And of course, my ‘advisor’ would be long gone.
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Lucik #6
Halcyon 99, while I am not tempted to make this personal and while I agree that people have to be aware that if they sign a 25 year plan they actually need to believe that they gonna be funding it for that period of time. Like one does with any other pension plan in Europe or US. I am still suspicious about your intentions here though: You have 4 posts in total- all of them in the " Financial Advisers" area- 1. you revived an old topic to post + 2. you open a new topic on the issue You also seem to have a lot of insider knowledge ( In your first post you even know how much comission is an adviser making for a client investing 2000 USD per month). These figures are only known by people that work or have worked in the industry. Thus,forgive my scepticism, but I truly suspect that you are following the recent trend of few fee-based advisers badmouthing the comission based advisers in articles, forums...
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Pablo #7
I know that there are people in finance who are professionals and do right by their clients. Not all of them are like this necessarily. I would want to know the answers to some of these tough questions from a person who want me to give them a wad of my money. If they are transparent and above board, no problem. If they are trying to sell me a program as described by the OP, what should i do? Go along for the ride? If someone is a financial consultant help clients make legitimate, transparent choices that helps improve their position, they have nothing to worry about.
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halcyon99 #8
Please, I was barraged by phone calls on my private cell phone number within 2 weeks of getting out of Beijing Airport by cold callers asking to set-up meetings with 'advisors' flogging these scams. After examing the products, which would have basically ruined me, then discussing these plans with my colleagues, its little wonder the products have to be marketed so aggressively. I can only imagine how these salespeople peddle on the naivety of young family-oriented expats. Besides, we aren't talking about peanuts here Lucik, we are talking about people's financial futures, along with their loved ones financial futures. There is a reason it take several years to get a FA license in Australia, Lucik, as there are myriad professional, ethical, and regulatory responsibilities. NONE of these responsibilities exist here in mainland China. If you truly did work in this industry, I don't know how you can even begin to defend these scams. Besides, just a quick google search shows that the web is over-run by sad tales of expats being scammed by these offshore savings accounts offered by "advisors..." For example: "My worst investment was with Friends Provident Premier Flexible Saving Plan, I was misled by an advisor based in Thailand into thinking it was a straighforward lump sum investment, it was not. The charges and exit penalties on the initial units are so high that I will be very lucky to get back one third of my investment. "You don?t say how much you are putting into the Friends Provident Premier plan but if you have a look at the policy terms and conditions you will note that 1.5% per quarter (6% in year one right? Plus another 3% in year two, so 9% total) is payable on the contributions you made during the first 18 months BUT it is paid every year on these contributions throughout the entire term of the plan. All 25 years in your case. Let's assume for easy working that was $1000 a month = 18000 x 9% = $1620 per annum X 25 years = 40,500 Additionally you have the 1.2% pa which is on the mirror funds. A mirror fund is basically a life company fund which invests in the underlying fund of the same name run by the managers of say Thames River Capital, Baring, Investec etc. Those underlying funds also have an annual management fee and so you are effectively giving your money to a life company and paying them dearly for the benefit of them passing your money on to a fund management company. Those underlying fund fees may be 1.5% pa or they can be higher, 2% is not uncommon, and you have to add this to the 1.2% pa. So assume that the underlying fund has an annual management charge of 1.5% then you?ll be paying a total of 2.7% in addition to the annual drag on your performance from the initial charge of 9%. The reduction in yield caused by this may not look much now, but this is like heading for the North Pole and starting off a yard off course. By the time you are well down the road you are off course. Should you wish to get out of this plan at all then I would draw your attention to first paragraph 1.10 of the Policy Provisions which basically says if you stop, after 90 days we?ll make it paid up, but the fees continue whether you pay in or not." "It doesn't matter whether the sum is 450, 4500 or 45,000, you have paid for 15 months out of a possible 240 i.e. 6.25%. These are terrible products and you can almost certainly do better elsewhere. Cut your losses and get out now. As previously mentioned, the stock market should present very good returns over 20 years particularly from these levels, Past experiance would suggest that you would recoup your money and then some." I signed up for a 25-year Generali Vision life insurance policy, paying in a lump sum each month. This was what he recommended as a flexible investment which would allow the money to grow and leave me with a large sum on retirement. After receiving the policy documents, however, I was puzzled by apparent contradictions with what he had said, and was able to confirm by phoning Generali that the investment was not flexible (e.g. multiple payment holidays were not allowed, as the adviser had claimed, and even one payment holiday was not guaranteed) and would take a number of years to show any growth...
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halcyon99 #9
I was also persuaded by the same company to sign up for the same life insurance policy. But I found that the policy documents contradicted what I had been led to believe by the advisor. In particular, the projected growth figures showed that, assuming 5% p.a. growth and a large monthly premium invested in low-medium risk funds, the money wouldn't actually start growing until after 9 years or so, i.e. the value of the policy would not match the money invested until then. When I then asked more specifically about commission (particularly as this question had not really been answered properly), the insurer refused to tell me and the "advisor"/******* gave an unconvincing explanation. As an aside I was speaking to an Investment Advisor here regarding Generali Vision plan. Our initial chat is what got me onto HYP, as it rekindled my desire to take personal control of my investing rather than handing over money (and a large wad of fees) to someone else. After reading various threads on Generali and the like (from you and others) I had a long session with him where I went through the Fees / Charges brouchure with a fine tooth comb. They charge at every point possible, double charge, allow you to stop paying in (but still charge as if you were) etc etc etc. I pointed out that the fund returns that they quote were excluding deductions of Initial Charge, and therefore I would be unlikely to get anywhere near them. He genuinely seemed to regard this situation as OK and kept reminding me that 'everyone does it this way' and Generali was better as it was more flexible. I have arranged a final meeting where I will let him down gently (I'm in a small expat community so he is a social acquaintence as well - so just brushing him aside is not on). As I was walking to the car I got a phone call from him: "Forgot to mention it but Generali have an offer on at the moment - they'll give you an additional first months premium, FREE. Sounds good doesn't it? The offer closes on Friday so it's worth thinking about." Oldest trick in the book, and my resolve to DIY rather than hand my money over has been strengthened by this simple sentence. So, as a guide, if you had a meeting with an Offshore IFA that wanted to sell you an investment wrapper and also took commission on the funds that they chose while switching funds say, twice a year and also charging you a 1% management fee. The total fee on 200K investment would be approximately: Insurance wrapper @7% £14,000 Fund allocation averaged out @3% £6000 2 fund swaps over the financial year @3% x2 £12000 1% management fee £2000 £34,000 That’s 17% of your investment gone in commissions! Be very wary.

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